Mike C

Mike,

> Once I did that, it worked perfectly on Firefox.  Yet it opened a bag of
> worms in IE

What version of Firefox?
What version of IE (bear in mind that IE 6 does not support position:fixed
but IE 7 does)?
Please test in Opera 9 and tell me if it works there:
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/sendEmail.php#testbrowsers

> I will pay you to help me get this working.

http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/aboutsite.html#funding

> The site is [URL]

Please provide me with either a static version of the page that demonstrates
the problem (this would be best), or provide me with a login and further
instructions so I can test this for myself.


Mark 'Tarquin' Wilton-Jones - author of http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/

> Firefox version 2.0.0.4
> IE version 6.0.2900.2180
> I do not have Opera on my system.

http://www.opera.com/download/

Mike,

> I downloaded and installed Opera.  When I try to go to the traffic
> monitor, it doesn't work, some weird undefinedundefinedundefined message
> in the traffic monitor window...

This shows that you have some bugs in your code that you really should try
to fix. Opera's JavaScript support is about the best in the browser
industry, and it's not Opera's fault that you are using a browser sniffer
that then sends Opera down the wrong code path is it?

> I do know for a fact that I hardly get any site visitors at all using
> Opera:

http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/nostats.html

But besides which, I ask you to test in it to save me debugging time. It's a
few minutes of your time, but it's far more of my time considering how many
people I help.

> So I logged into the traffic monitor with firefox and visited the dev site
> with Opera.  Sent the invite and it worked in Opera as it did in Firefox,
> so it's just not working in IE (with the current CSS rules)
> Mike

Great, this shows you that you are probably using the CSS correctly, and it
is just IE that is messing up.

> IE version 6.0.2900.2180

As I said, IE 6 does not support position:fixed (it treats it as
position:static). IE 7 does. So basically your stuff should work in IE 7,
just not in IE 6. I have an article describing how to get it working in IE
6, but I recommend that you simply ignore it and ask IE users to
use IE 7.
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/fixedPosition.html

> The goal is to get it to work ... in both IE and Firefox..

There are more than two browsers in this World, and you could play a part in
helping make the Web a better place if you support standards compliant
browsers (and use code branches for IE if needed), instead of just IE and
one standards compliant browser.

I really disapprove of this idea of supporting just two browsers - it's not
1997 any more.

Mike,

I am not trying to get on any high horse. I am trying to instill a sense of
responsibility in you. Your site does not work where it should. Whether or
not you like a browser is irrelevant. I do not like IE, but I still make
sites work in it. I do not like Firefox, but I still make sites work in it.
You don't have to like a browser. You just have to make your pages work in
it.

That is your responsibility as a Web developer. To make pages that work in
browsers that take the time to follow the standards set out by the World
Wide Web Consortium. Whether you accept that responsibility or not is simply
up to you, and of course I cannot force you. However, I will not offer my
time to help anyone who does not want to take the time to help me to help
them.

That means testing in the browsers that I ask you to test in, because
testing in multiple browsers allows us both to see where you are relying on
a non-standard behaviour of one browser, or you have hit on a bug in
another. By testing in Opera as well, you showed me that the bug was in IE.
You could have used that information yourself as well, and hopefully you
will learn that good development means testing in multiple browsers to help
locate the browser that is at fault.

However, you have chosen to be ungrateful instead of accepting education.
You asked me to locate the cause of a problem. I located the cause of the
problem (you are using some CSS that IE 6 does not support, and yet you want
it to work in IE 6). I have answered your questions, but you seem to have
chosen to ignore my answers. Now you could do us both a favour by swallowing
your pride, and using the information I have provided you with to and fix
your site. Alternatively, you could continue in your ignorance. It is your
choice.

If you need to contact me for further help, please ensure you follow the
guidelines on my contact page.

> I don't know what a browser sniffer is either.

It is where you detect a browser based on its name (or some other
information), and you then decide what it is capable of, based only on what
you think it is capable of, based on its name. Your code in this file uses
it, and fails because it does not use proper code branches for the browsers
that it has detected (it also gets it wrong in Safari 3, which it seems to
think is Gecko, when it isn't):

[url].js

If you are not the author of that script, then you should contact the author
and ask them to fix it, especially since you have paid them for a piece of
code that does not work properly.

Mike,

> I was looking for help in what to do as a workaround..

Does my article not explain it well enough?
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/fixedPosition.html

I am sure I have explained it better in that article than I will be able to
do via email. But if there is any specific part you are unsure of, ask
me.

Mike,

> Your article is very thorough, however, being that I'm not a web
> developer, I don't understand how to apply any of it to my situation. 

I see, so you are asking for help implementing what I said in the article,
[Ed. Even though it clearly says I no longer support it...]
not to locate the cause. Right. Onwards.

[URL].css

This looks like an attempt to emulate fixed positioning in IE 6 (I am
guessing this one was done by the authors of the tool, but it will help to
show you what it is that you need for your own code):

#loaderContainer {
  position: fixed;
  width: 100%;
  height: 100%;
  top: 0;
  left: 0;
  position: expression('absolute');
  height: expression(document.documentElement.scrollHeight+'px');
  width: expression(document.documentElement.scrollWidth+'px');
  z-index: 1000;
}

Nearly there. The IE expressions are right for what they are doing, except
that they also need to add these two to make IE take scrolling into account:
  top: expression(document.body.scrollTop+'px');
  left: expression(document.body.scrollLeft+'px');
This will work effectively the same as position:fixed; assuming the element
called "loaderContainer" is not put inside any other element that has
position:absolute or position:relative. (Note that it also forces IE 7 to
use the hack, even though it could work with real position:fixed; but that
is harmless, so don't worry about it.)

Now to where I think you have tried to use fixed positioning. You seem to
have put this line inside your javascript.php file:

proactive += '#imageObject { visibility: hidden; position: fixed; top: 400;
left: 400; z-index: 5000; }';

Basically, you want the same effect there. So you need to add the
expressions inside that long string, so that single line becomes this
instead:

proactive += '#imageObject { visibility: hidden; position: fixed;'+
' top: 400px; left: 400px; z-index: 5000;'+
'  position: expression(\'absolute\');'+
'  top: expression((400+document.body.scrollTop)+\'px\');'+
'  left: expression((400+document.body.scrollLeft)+\'px\');'+
' }';

Change the extra "400"s if needed to allow for any differences. Note that I
put the expressions together based on the fact that you have no <!DOCTYPE>
at the top of your document (meaning it uses quirks mode rendering). If you
ever choose to add a doctype and the effect stops working, you will need to
change "body" to "documentElement".

These are the only places that I have seen fixed positioning used on the
parts of the site that you have shown me, so I hope that together, these
will get it working the way you want. If not, you will need to contact the
authors of the tool, and ask them how to do what you want.

Mike,

> IE6      - (big surprise) chat invite image does not appear or scroll
> across, but the online/offline status icon is now visible and functional
> so that's a plus for sure.

It worked for me in IE 6, but only if IE 6 was the _only_ browser I had
running with the page open waiting to receive the invite. Seems the invite
can only be received by one browser at a time. Took about 10 seconds for the
invite to appear.

Make sure that IE 6 is the only browser that you have open showing the test
page, then use Firefox to send the invite to IE 6. If it still fails to work
for you, the only thing I can assume is that there is a bug in the system,
and you should contact the authors of it and ask them for help.

> Did I miss anything in your instructions

Nope, you followed them perfectly.

Mike,

> Weird, it's not working for me in IE6 at all

Ok, well, I see nothing at all in the code that could cause that effect. But
I do not know the code as well as its authors. Perhaps they know something
that I do not.

One possibility is that your IE install is broken (perhaps its ActiveX is
not working due to some overly high security setting). To be honest, you
really should get off IE 6 as soon as possible anyway, it is a serious
security risk. If you still want to test your site in IE 6 after upgrading
to IE 7, you can use the TredoSoft installer:
http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/ie7.html#packageie7